This posting is in two parts, and will require a similar response.
First: re-read paragraphs 24-29 in Part III, beginning with “I think I would have raised an outcry…” to “And yet I had only supported him, his bony arm clasped round my neck—and he was not much heavier than a child.”
Remember what Marlow tells his listeners earlier in his tale?—”It seems to me I am trying to tell you a dream—making a vain attempt, because no relation of a dream can convey the dream-sensation, that commingling of absurdity, surprise, and bewilderment in a tremor of struggling revolt, that notion of being captured by the incredible which is of the very essence of dreams…” If this episode, in which Marlow pursues Kurtz and confronts him in the brush at night, were a dream sequence, what sort of dream would it be and where would it be set? Would it be too much to say this dream is a nightmare and the setting is an earthly representation of hell?
Second: re-read paragraph 48, beginning “However, as you see, I did not go to join Kurtz there and then.” In this passage, which is in part an impressionistic account of Marlow's near-fatal illness on his return trip, he speaks of Kurtz in terms of “loyalty” and “destiny,” and comments that the best “you can from from it is some knowledge of yourself…”
He “affirm[s] that Kurtz was a remarkable man” and says that although he, Marlow, “peeped over the edge” of what we might call a spiritual abyss and seems to have lived through Kurtz's “extremity” rather than his own, “he [Kurtz] had stepped over the edge while I had been permitted to draw back my hesitating foot.”
This is some heavy stuff. Why does Marlow say he has “remained loyal to Kurtz to the last, and even beyond…” and why is he so impressed by Kurtz's final cry—”The horror!”—that he calls the cry “an affirmation, a moral victory paid for by innumerable defeats…”?
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So here is my input on the first part of this post. I'll put what I think about the second one later...
So this dream, I think that it depends on the perspective of whoever is having the dream. For Kurtz, this dream is not a nightmare set in hell where he is walking into the inferno. To him, it's a place of paradise, where he is joining with people that understand him and want him to be there. He is going into a place where is accepted by all, and is considered as godly. He wants that feeling of ecstasy, and that's probably the reason why he's going for it. To Marlow however, and everyone that has a mindset similar to Marlow believing that the Natives there are forms of the devil, see Kurtz walking into his doom. That what Kurtz is doing is selling his soul to the devil. Marlow was wrestling with Kurtz's soul who has lost it's way when it was trying to find a home, "I saw the inconceivable mystery of a soul that knew no restraint, no faith, and no fear, yet struggling blindly at last itself" (part 3, par. 29). Kurtz's soul was sold to the devil that it was only going one direction, and Marlow is the person that saves Kurtz's soul from being damned. Marlow turned Kurtz around before it was too late, and got him out of the hell that he was walking into. Those are the two different dreams that can be seen when reading this section. Either a heaven or a hell depending on which side you're looking at it.
In response to the first passage, I agree that this episode is a nightmare for Marlow, but I would also say it is a nightmare for Kurtz. Kurtz is utterly possessed. He seams almost feverish as he crawls through the darkness away from Marlow. He seams to be able to taste the nearness of death enclosing in on him from all sides. When Kurtz speaks to Marlow threatening his life, it is reminiscent to a demon processing a biblical figure arguing with the apostle casting it out. It is like Marlow is trying to pull Kurtz from the forest and the demon inside him is lashing on its own accord. This is nightmarish both for the demon being cast out and for Kurtz whose "soul was mad" and who was being tormented by the raging devil inside of him. The setting to me is very hell-like, but I would not go so far as to call it an earthly hell because ultimately Marlow is able to drag Kurtz out of the forest and it seams like at the end of the passage the devil has left Kurtz who is now "not much heavier than a child". This escape would never happen in an earth-hell.
Marlow has remained loyal to Kurtz to death and beyond in the sense that if you were to call the first passage an earthly hell, Marlow reached into hell and pulled Kurtz out of it. It was a mad struggle with a "anguish soul", afterward Kurtz reflects in "his collected languid manner" that now the company will most likely just cease all of his ivory. Kurtz final cry "the horror the horror" is “an affirmation, a moral victory paid for by innumerable defeats…” in that Kurtz, the most agressive of all the devils in the Congo is admitting that what happened was horrific. It is an affirmation for Marlow that there is still hope an justice that exists outside of the hellish jungle because the outside world can still look at the Congo and be horrified. It is a victory paid for by all of those that suffered under the hands of Kurtz because now Kurtz they are receiving retribution. Kurtz is dieing and defeated, this is a victory for all of those who appose him. He is remorseful for his actions and this is a victory for everyone who apposes the horrors of the Congo.
With regards to the first passage, I don't believe it would be a stretch to call Marlow's experience a nightmare, as what he describes seems far too horrible to be real. As Krista mentioned, Kurtz acts as if possessed, as though some unknown animal has been awakened within him, as primitive and savage as the sorcerer that Marlow describes. The entire scene brings to my mind the act of the opera Faust in which Mephistopheles offers Faust's condemned lover Marguerite salvation from final judgment, an offer she refuses with the declaration that she'd rather trust her fate with the angels. Similarly, the devil-like Kurtz offers Marlow, in a sense, an opportunity that he refuses - it is clear from Marlow's description that Kurtz possesses some unearthly power, some almost supernatural control over fates, over the 'savages', a power that he allows Marlow to glimpse and partake in through the ceremony before the fire. Marlow is reluctant, and remains reluctant to behave as Kurtz did throughout the novel, preferring to live by some greater power, some greater order, than just his own.
It is this same power that I believe Marlow addresses in his mention of Kurtz's "extremity", as excerpted in the second blog passage - it is this "edge" that Marlow "peeps over" by witnessing the scene at the sorcerer's fire. He is loyal to Kurtz in the sense that he acknowledges Kurtz's superhuman abilities (something that most other Company agents seem to ignore), that he reveres him for them and does not once relinquish his belief that Kurtz is indeed "a remarkable man". And yet despite worshipping Kurtz as a hero, Marlow also recognizes Kurtz's vulnerabilities and admires him for being able to admit them as he does in his dying breath, to speak of the truly horrifying depths to which he had sunk during his time in the Congo.
I agree with both Krista and Than that this episode was clearly a nightmare for Marlow, and I think what Than said about this being a heaven for Kurtz is interesting. Never the less, this episode was a nightmare for Kurtz’s soul. As Kurtz and Marlow confront each other on that grassy hill, Kurtz has already stepped over that spiritual threshold and has already sold his soul to the devil. The only thing that saved him from complete desolation and destruction was Marlow. If Marlow had not supported him back, then all remnants of Kurtz’s soul would have been lost, and there would not have been a “moral victory” for Kurtz later on in paragraph 48. For Marlow, Kurtz’s nightmare is also his own, as they are doubles of one another and are both part of the “gang of virtue”. When Marlow discovers that Kurtz has gone missing, he received a “moral shock…intolerable to thought and odious to the soul…” (paragraph 25). He finds himself being consumed and lured in by the darkness also. As there is a “foundation of intimacy” between them, Kurtz’s battle with the wilderness reflects Marlow’s own battle. If he had not been able to help Kurtz back, Marlow “…would never [have been able to] get back to the steamer…” either (paragraph 26). It is a nightmare for both of them as both their souls are in danger.
When I first read chapter 48, I was a little confused about the symbolism of “the ledge”. Now that I think about it, the ledge can represent both the ledge separating life and death and the ledge that leads to man’s descent into darkness and to hell. Both Marlow and Kurtz had come close to that ledge separating both life and death and light and darkness, but while Kurtz had “…stepped over the edge,” Marlow “…had been permitted to draw back [his] hesitating foot. Kurtz had fallen over that edge twice, once in life by succumbing to the darkness within the wilderness and within himself. The second time, his step over the edge had taken his life. Marlow on the other hand, found himself tempted by the darkness of the wilderness and even though he may have gone close to the edge, he never crossed it. As we discussed in class, he had an innate strength, restraint, and a work ethic that protected him. Similarly, in this passage where he is accounting his near death experience, he admits that he had come close to death, but had drawn back at the last minute and was subsequently saved. But, what disturbed Marlow most about his experience near the ledge was his inability “…for pronouncement.” He discovered that faced with the last few moments of life, he had nothing to say. This is the reason why he felt Kurtz was such a remarkable man; he had something to say! In his last moments, Kurtz was able to finally glimpse the truth: the truth of his actions and the true face of the darkness that he had sold his soul to. This is the reason that Marlow has remained loyal to Kurtz. He admires Kurtz’s resolution and moment of victory in his last moments. Kurtz’s last words, “the horror,” were a moral victory, because in spite of all the “…abominable terrors... [and] abominable satisfactions,” a remnant of Kurtz’s soul had triumphed and saw the horror of his actions and insatiable desires and had expressed horror at the innate weakness of his character.
In regards to the first passage, I agree that the dream is a nightmare (for both Marlow and Kurtz), though I would not go so far as to say it is a sort of hell on earth representation. It was a nightmare for Marlow in that when he discovered that Kurtz had left, described it as a “moral shock...as if something altogether monstrous, intolerable to thought and odious to the soul, had been thrust upon me [him] unexpectedly” (part 3, par. 24). Marlow felt the distinct, overpowering need to find Kurtz and bring him back- to essentially save him from his own nightmare. Kurtz was stuck in the darkness of his nightmare, and always felt the wild whispering to him. For him, it was near impossible to leave, his will had submitted to the darkness. Instead of civilizing the savages, he had actually succumbed to their way of life. When Marlow went and found Kurtz and was able to talk him into going back, Marlow brought him out of the nightmare. Kurtz was too weak to fight it any more and Marlow had the will and strength to bring them both out of it.
In regards to the second passage, I believe that Marlow says he has “remained loyal to Kurtz to the last, and even beyond...” because even after Kurtz’s death, Marlow still thinks of him as a remarkable man. Part of the reason Marlow seemed to admire Kurtz so much was because “He [Kurtz] had something to say. He said it” (part 3, par. 48). I also believe that Marlow is so impressed by Kurtz’s final cry and calls it “and affirmation, a moral victory paid for by innumerable defeats...” because Kurtz finally saw, even if only for a brief moment, the truth of it all. He finally saw what he had done and what had been done and he realized “The horror!” of it all.
After re-reading the first passage, I can't picture an "earthly hell". I think in order for this to have been an earthly hell Marlow would have been confronted by the natives and had his life threatened. The "hell" described is dark, damp, and pitiful. All I can feel from the confrontation with Kurtz is sadness and despairity. Kurtz is just frantic now that he knows he will die and is afraid his work was all meaningless, but that doesn't seem like enough for it to be an earthly hell. An earthly hell seems like there should be physical torturing going on. I think for Kurtz this is more a nightmare because he has finally seen the darkness that surrounds Africa and the people who created it. For Marlow, this just seems like a dream. Dreams are incredible and unreal. Nightmares are scary and Marlow doesn't seem as scared as he should be if this were a nightmare. Instead, he seems calm and collected, maybe a little nervous since there is a whole tribe of people nearby ready to murder him at Kurtz's word, but not exactly scared. He even seems to congratulate himself for saying "the right thing", with a "flash of inspiration". Although to other people this may have been a nightmare, Marlow seems calm and is able to convince Kurtz to come back on the boat with him.
Okaay, so here's what I think about the second part of this thingamabob.
Marlow hasn't finished his job that he has promised Kurtz so he is still loyal to Kurtz even though Kurtz is dead. He probably thought that destiny has allowed him to meet Kurtz, an apparition that everyone knew and talked about, whom he started to doubt was real. I'm really kind of unsure of what this second part of the section means. But what Michelle said really made sense, how the abyss could be two things. A hell to fall into or a darkness that someone can't get out of.
I think Conrad wrote "the horror" twice, was that he was trying to be literal and metaphorical. The literal one means that Kurtz has seen the atrocities of what Leopold has done to the natives, and not only that, he has seen the power that the natives possess and terror that they can cause, but also the remedies that they can procure. Metaphorically, I think the horror is what makes life so surreal. How life has it's ups and downs, especially the way Kurtz had said it with an "echo of his magnificent eloquence..." (part 3, par. 48) it's a ringing of what is yet to come. The horror is what is in the past, present and future. Life in general.
I agree with what everyone has said so far about the entire sequence being nightmare-ish for Marlow. To describe a scene as “pure abstract terror, unconnected with any distinct shape of physical danger” or “monstrous, intolerable to thought and odious to the soul” (paragraph 24) is to imply that it is a nightmare. And considering the connection between Marlow and Kurtz I would argue that it’s almost implied that Kurtz would be involved in the nightmare as well. Also I completely agree with Michelle that Kurtz’s battle with the darkness reflects Marlow’s battle, further proving the odd intimate relationship between them. Also, I think Kurtz’s nightmare is a little more complicated than we choose to believe. I think on one hand he is in heaven because for the first time in his life he is in control of his surroundings. He is rich, successful and admired, the polar opposite of his former lowly self. However I think the price, selling his soul to the devil, was nowhere near worth the glory. Perhaps therein lies Kurtz’s nightmare, that his power is temporary and that without is strange and impressive power over the natives and his knack for finding ivory, he is nothing (or at least so he believes).
I think the reason Marlow says he “remained loyal to Kurtz to the last, and even the beyond..” is because despite everything he had heard and witnessed, true to his word to the Russian, he never turned on Kurtz. He believed in his abnormal presence and abilities until the very end, and I think he’s proud of that more than anything else. He’s impressed with Kurtz’s final “the horror!” cry because it was something he was unable to do. Because he was able to experience a similar extremity before death, he understood the pressures with which Kurtz was faced and therefore respected him that much more. It’s interesting that he would’ve stayed loyal to Kurtz’s reputation even after seeing how utterly possessed and sick he was. But he was impressed with his final words because Kurtz did the thing that he could not, he had no words.
I think this episode is a nightmare, like everyone above me posted. I think it's a reflection of Marlow's feelings of horror at discovering who the real Kurtz is. The entire book leads up to Marlow meeting Kurtz, who is a mystic figure to him. His dismay and shock at seeing the real Kurtz causes him to have this nightmare. I think the nightmare represents how Kurtz made the decision to basically sell his soul and go to hell and Marlow struggles to reconcile his ideal image of Kurtz to the reality of who Kurtz actually is. He had this ideal view of Kurtz as this savior and genius and kindred spirit and he is not.
As to the second part of the prompt, this reoccurring nightmare Marlow has of Kurtz when he's ill relates to the first part of the prompt. Marlow sees how Kurtz "permeated all the hearts that beat in the darkness... and had judged" (par. 48). Marlow admires him for being able to do that, to face that darkness that he refuses to.
I think it's definitely a nightmare also, just because it's full of pure emotion, “pure abstract terror, unconnected with any distinct shape of physical danger”.
Like many have said before me, I think the nightmare is for both kurtz and marlow. I wouldn't say the nightmare would be located in an earthly representation of hell, though. Some nightmares aren't even located in all that scary of places, this is completely irrelevant but my own nightmares always take place in nice places for some reason. Like this one nightmare I actually had I was walking down a street during autumn and leaves were falling and everything and it was really nice, but then I got shot by a mailman and it was a horrible nightmare...so I dont know where I was going with that but nightmares arent always in earthly hells or infernos with fire and lava everywhere.
To begin, I very much appreciate Thanh's ice-breaking insights on this topic. Yet, I happen to disagree with her on Kurtz's view of his realm of existence. I think the paradise could have been a driving factor in his transformation, but I see Kurtz as a lost man, with a great emptiness: no matter how much Ivory he pilfers, no matter how directly powerful he becomes, the void can never be filled. The impression I gathered from Marlow's experience is one of insignificance: He is loved and revered only within his sphere of influence- one filled with people who are already thoroughly convinced of his greatness. He seems lost in his power, and is very similar, in some respects, to an addict. Maybe this is where Thanh is correct- the power is his drug. While the high is increasingly short, he is so invested in its effects that it has consumed him. This leads me to believe that the inner station is Kurtz's Hell as well as Marlow's. .
It wouldn't be too much to call paragraphs 24-30 a nightmare and a representation of hell. It certainly has hellish features. Plus no dream contains such terror and fear. For a bit I thought the dream might be prophetic.
For Marlow and for Kurtz the events are scary. "The fact is I was completely unnerved by a sheer blank fright, pure abstract terror, unconnected with any distinct shape of physical danger" (paragraph 25). Marlow is terrified and feels nothing physical - like a nightmare. The imagery used in paragraphs 29 and 30 could be used to describe hell. "There was nothing either above or below..." "Soul! If anybody had ever struggled with a soul, I am the man," "the gleam of firs, the throb of drums, the drone of weird incantations; this alone had beguiled his unlawful soul beyond the bounds of permitted aspirations," "A black figure stood up, strode on long black legs, waving long black ars, across the glow. It had horns..."
Suffering through these dreadful images with Marlow is Kurtz. Kurtz seems to be selling his soul for greatness. He sways unhuman-like, near fires, by black "devils." Marlow tries to stop him from shouting (shouting for his soul to be sacrificed?), to which Kurtz proclaims, "'I had immense plans...I was on the threshold for great things...'" Marlow "tried to break the spell - the heavy, mute spell of the wilderness - that seemed to draw him to its pitiless breast by the awakening of forgotten and brutal instincts, by the memory of gratified and monstrous passions." If a soul had to be in a certain place of the body it would be in the heart. The last paragraphs of this section is an extended metaphor for selling one's soul.
But Kurtz never did sell his soul. Although he suffered through moral, ethic, sinful shocks, he still managed to keep his self. His last words, "The horror! The horror!" summarizes everything in his African adventures. Everything he's done, everything that's happened around him, was horrific. Those four words act like a way to repent everything. Kurtz does not ultimately believe that the stuff in the past was right, it was wrong. It was all terrible and dreadful.
Marlow admires that Kurtz does not fully lose his soul even though he faced loads of trauma. "He had something to say." Kurtz goes through all of these bad things and is still able to reflect upon it. He is able to look back and call it all horror. Marlow probably thinks its courageous of Kurtz to be a man and face what he's done moments before he dies. Kurtz was a man whose life meant something. He faced demons and came out alive. (Well technically he died, but it's not like he died from suicide - running away from his fears.)
Mr. Duncan (or someone else), when you put "he [Kurtz] had stepped over the edge while I had been permitted to draw back my hesitating foot" in the second part, why did you put [Kurtz] after he? Shouldn't [Kurtz] replace the he?
I agree with everyone else’s post in that this ‘dream sequence’ is a nightmare. I think that it is a nightmare for both Marlow and Kurtz. The nightmare for Marlow begins when he finds that Kurtz is gone. Marlow’s experience of “pure abstract terror” followed by the feeling that “something altogether monstrous, intolerable to thought and odious to soul, had been thrust upon me unexpectedly” show the severity of the problem that Kurtz is gone (paragraph 24). Marlow’s nightmare continues as he travels forward to see the figure he had hoped and waited to know crawling towards such terrible things ( both physically and metaphorically). For Kurtz I believe that it is a nightmare in that this is where he has ended up in his life. I think that the fact that he is crawling towards a possibly earthly hell in which he feels comfortable and that those who are there accept and understand him is the nightmare for Kurtz.
I think that the reason Marlow says he has remained loyal to Kurtz is that he still respects him and “affirm[s] that Kurtz was a remarkable man,” (paragraph 48). I think this is because Kurtz wanted and worked for something in his life – “he had something to say. He said it,” (paragraph 48). I think that Marlow is impressed by Kurtz’s final cry because he believes that he had finally reached an understanding of life; after all the defeats and terrors there was satisfaction because he finally understood.
I found paragraph 48 to to be one of the more sincere passages in the novella. His description of the balance between life and death is very dream-like and abstract, and seems to have come from a very real experience (possibly Conrad's attempted suicide). Marlow's attraction to and loyalty towards Kurtz can be examined through his reaction to Kurtz's final words. While Marlow is well aware of Kurtz's inhumane tendencies, "...abominable terrors, abominable satisfactions..." He is still Kurtz's devotee. If we look at Marlow's fascination with Kurtz's last words, I think we can see why. Marlow sees Kurtz's proclamation as a respectable feat of greatness and a "moral victory". I think that Marlow is drawn to Kurtz in part because he sees a bit of himself in him. Kurtz did not begin the way he became, and this transformation is of interest to Marlow. Throughout the book, Kurtz's acts are not explicitly enumerated, generating not an empirical view, but an idealistic view of one completely immersed in darkness. There must be some residual guilt in Marlow from taking part in the system of lies so embodied by Kurtz. So, when Kurtz issues his final impact on the world, coming to terms with himself, and prevailing internally over his darkness, it can be seen as a victory not just for Kurtz, but for Marlow too. Since Marlow identified himself so closely with him despite his evident flaws, and because of his evident flaws, it can affirm Marlow's faith. Yet, I see Kurtz's final words as only a partial victory. Instead of reaching peace with himself, I think Kurtz finally gains some perspective about his character and his situation, and comes to terms with it. It seems not like a victory, but more of a "what have I done!" type sentiment, just as one is about to recieve punishment. It could be Kurtz's confrontation with the Devil, just before he is dragged off the stage into the excellently painted, fiery wooden exit.
Odd. I seem to have special bookmarks on paragraph 24 and paragraph 48. Some sort of... subconscious clairvoyance?
In any case, here's what I've thought about and put together [over the past couple days, kind of].
It seems to be pretty much consensus, from the responses so far, that this particular dream is a nightmare for both Marlow and Kurtz.
Here, in this confrontation, Marlow is the only thing standing between Kurtz and a final plunge into darkness and madness. (This is both metaphorical and literal, you'll notice--metphorical, for obvious reasons, and literal on the part of the shadowy sorcerer fiending over the fire a mere thirty yards away.)
It's thoroughly terrifying for Marlow in that Kurtz is another man of virtue, having struggled with his own soul in the Congo's darkness. At this point, Kurtz's fall into corruption much reflects Marlow's own looming potential, and without Kurtz's presence, Marlow cannot go on. The mere thought of it is "intolerable to the thought and odious to the soul..." (¶.24) Without Kurtz, Marlow can't make it through this intact. (We'll see that this is both mental and physical a little later on.)
Here, in this confrontation, Marlow stands as the only thing holding Kurtz back from an irreversible path into darkness. (Though it's interesting that Marlow "was anxious to deal with this shadow by myself alone," [¶.25] and what that infers.) If Kurtz goes back, he dies--and with that, Marlow will lose himself to the darkness. Oh, the pressure: Marlow can't even think straight... "I don't know. I had some imbecile thoughts." (¶.26)
Here, in this confrontation, Marlow realizes all of this. For the first time, he looks into and consciously realizes the situation of Kurtz's soul, and what it implies for his own. He's felt it unconsciously for quite some time, but now... now it comes crashing down. Now that's some nightmare fuel.
On top of that all, Marlow is in quite a precarious position very literally, as well. If Marlow slips up in the slightest and Kurtz calls for his native cohorts to escort him, Marlow's dead. Whoops.
Kurtz, on the other hand, is in a different stage of darkness entirely. He fell into depravity long ago, given into the infinite madness of limitless freedom. Now that he's on the boat back to England, the man who is said to have "kicked himself loose of the earth" is faced with the shocking realization that his limitless freedom is quickly closing before him. As such, once again "... The heavy, mute spell of the wilderness... draw[s] him to its pitiless breast by the awakening of forgotten and brutal instincts, by the memory of gratified and monstrous patterns." Can Kurtz exist in the social framework that he's thoroughly renounced? Is there an acceptable existence left for him back in Europe? According to Marlow, Kurtz is a "criminal" in that he's rejected the principles of European society. According to the Russian, he can't even be judged by conventional standards anymore. In infinite struggle, Kurtz's soul belongs in Africa. It's "looked within itself," and "gone mad." (¶.29)
Kurtz's nightmare is not summed up into this single event, unlike Marlow's. He's been living it for quite some time, and now it meets a final climax--the climax of choice. Recognize this with that struggling soul and escape it, or quietly sneak back into hell?
It's not the sort of event that you can relate with the dialogue alone, like Marlow says--"but what's the good? They were common everyday words... they had behind them... the terrific suggestions of words spoken in nightmares." As with much of Marlow's tale, the aura--the feeling of it all is the point. The feeling of oh-so-closely escaping descent into darkness by barely saving someone who's already done so. The feeling of staring into such a soul--a soul driven to madness--a soul possessed by a lusty, red-eyed devil--a soul that you now recognize was much like your own. The feeling of, indeed, standing between Faust and the earthly representation of Hell behind you before it swallows him up forever.
If that's not something close to a living nightmare, I'm not sure what could be.
Given all that, I think that the second part of this posting ties closely into what I've said so far about Marlow and Kurtz.
The first bit is pretty simple. Marlow can't help but remain loyal to Kurtz--doing otherwise would be unthinkable. He's referred to it in the past: "I did not betray Mr. Kurtz... it was written that I should be loyal to the nightmare of my choice." (¶.25) As stated before, Kurtz's perversion reflects Marlow's own potential perversion. To betray Kurtz by soiling Kurtz's reputation and siding with flabby devil would be to betray his own chosen path, his own soul-struggle. Because of his inner strength and his sense of restraint (as briefly discussed in class), he's chosen Kurtz's lusty red-eyed devil over the flabby devil of the manager and his ilk. He's chosen to stare at the darkness within the human soul and its infinite capacity for corruption, over the troubling follies of the flabby devils. He's already passed judgement on those. (Though exactly how is hard to say.) That's just the way that Marlow is. He cannot betray that.
But then Kurtz dies. Kurtz dies, I think, not only because of the "climate" and whatnot, but also because of a sort of crisis in existance. He's dying, and he's going back to Europe. What'll he do there? Suddenly, Kurtz's legacy and the furthering of his ideas are of the utmost importance--to be met by kings, to be change the minds of people everywhere. "It's a duty." (This duty goes to Marlow after Kurtz's death.)
But... I thought that he couldn't live in England. Kurtz doesn't want to live in society. He doesn't want those principles, those obligations. He's a "god," an immortal floating above the rest. ... So he dies. Dies of... existential conflict, I guess. There's nothing more for him--the end of the road.
But then Marlow gets sick. But Marlow can't die, he's got to continue Kurtz's legacy. It's Marlow's destiny to do this, entrusted to him by a more-or-less-useless Kurtz. So he survives--it's not his time to step over the "existential abyss." He's indeed "lived through Kurtz's 'extremity' rather than his own," becuase Marlow's not quite hit a wall yet--or perhaps hasn't even really started on his own road yet. It's kind of confusing as to where Marlow is, exactly. In any case, he remains loyal to Kurtz simply by not dying.
I'll stop here. I'd go on, but my thoughts are making less and less coherent sense to me, even. These last two paragraphs, for example. There's something there, I just can't get it out right. This book does that to you after a while, I think. Maybe I'll come back later and continue/clarify. This is getting too long and has taken too long, for now.
Just a thought: Kurtz brings back thoughts of Oedipus with regard to self realization. Is it a stretch to call him a sort of tragic hero, the pitiful product of boundless power?
I found David's last post very lucid despite his reservations, and thought it very original. Yet, I'm not sure I agree with his view of Kurtz'z existential conflict (either that or I really didn't get his post, which would nullify my defense for his clarity). I don't believe that Kurtz doesn't want to live in Europe. I think that his lack of stature drove him to the Congo in the first place, and once he found his power, realized he would be just as low in Europe as before, causing an immersion in his current lofty position. That position turned to an obsession, a fascination. I think he clung to his power for confidence, but no matter how powerful he became, he would still be the man who couldn't marry his intended due to his stature. I think power in Europe was the driving force behind his development. Once he realized he would always be unfit, he must have grabbed onto the last thing he had: influence in the Congo. It must have been empty in its utter freedom, tasteless in its ease, so he pushed harder. I think he fears Europe because it represents the part of him that he can't escape.
A tragic hero, eh?
After some thought, I don't think that it's too much of a stretch to say that Kurtz is a tragic hero of sorts, no.
He sure fits the bill for many of the common traits.
It certainly would not be too much to call this dream a nightmare (he even refers to the expedition on a whole as a nightmare). I wholly agree with Hari on the topic of Faust and how Marlow refused the "offer" of Kurtz (which, to the best of my understanding, was to be part of the great plans that he had?) to save themselves, although I think that he doesn't live by some greater order, but he does live by his own. He does what he feels is best for himself and what is the least-bad for others.
Paragraph 48 was my absolute favorite. It reminds me of The Gladiator at the very end where Russel Crowe is dead on the ground, and he, to himself, is alone, and the procession carries his body out while the emperor is ignored, parallel in a way to Kurtz's final words defying what he stood for in previous times. Marlow says something along the lines that the last words of Kurtz were his final thoughts on everything that had occurred. It was a moral victory unto himself, where he approaches the final destination and makes a decision of whether or not he approves of what has been done (it takes courage to disapprove of yourself). In this case, Kurtz finally seems to be running along the same lines as Marlow, and thus Marlow remains loyal to Kurtz even after he has dreamed the nightmare.
The scene has a mystical element to it that really resembles a dream. “He struggled with himself, too. I saw it, - I heard it. I saw the inconceivable mystery of a soul that knew no restraint, no faith, and no fear, yet struggling blindly with itself.” Kurtz struggled with the demon inside of him; he struggled with the person that the jungle made him become. I think in a way he really believed that he was a God and the natives were his servants to carry out all his orders. He wanted to return to his “rightful” place, but Marlow gave him a flash of enlightenment and made him see glimpses of him true self. I don’t believe the devil exited out of him right there, but when he dies and says the words, “the horror, the horror”, because that was his final realization. I would not go as far as calling it hell, because they have not suffered enough themselves to call it hell. They only caught a glimpse of what hell could be like on earth.
Marlow is so loyal to Kurtz, because he had to choose between two evils and he chose Kurtz’s evil. He can’t turn back now, because that would make everything he struggled for invalid, like the fight to arrive at Kurtz’s station and the ill will received by the managers and the pilgrims. Also he is in a “gang of virtue” with Kurtz, so he is tied to him in that spiritual way. In a way, Marlow is still deeply impressed with Kurtz, even though Kurtz showed a very weak side to Marlow. His presence effects Marlow as heavily as the others Kurtz swayed. “The horror, the horror” is the escape of the devil inside Kurtz and the final realization of his truth of his life. I wouldn’t go as far as to say at that last moment Kurtz felt bad about everything he had done in the past, but I think Kurtz realized that he is not as great as he thought and his legacy wouldn’t hold up.
For the first passage I also agree with everyone's thoughts that this is a hellish nightmare for Marlow. Marlow finally finds out what Kurtz really is. He finds Kurtz, a reasonable man like himself, to be corrupted by the Congo and gone thorugh what all others through the COngo have been through. Marlow is terrfied at what he sees in Kurtz and by what the Congo does to the Europeans who come in it. I also feel like this is hell for Kurtz too. He has now been pushed towards such a living style. He is now feeling more comfortable in such a hellish earth. We see the hell for Kurtz by this also.
Paragraph 48 is an interesting one where Marlow shows his devotion to Kurtz even after what he has seen of Kurtz. Even after experiencing the nightmare Marlow decides to stay loyal to Kurtz. Marlow realizes that Kurtz did not enter the Congo as this hellish person but it is the Congo that facilitated this change in him.
Marlow continues to stay loyal to Kurtz because through his death, kurtz finds the truth for a brief moment and has a small more victory.
Will you stop with the Romans?
300. Gladiator. good golly Michael
Actually, Sparta was an ancient Greek city-state...
Thermopylae's quite Greek.
And Gladiator was a pretty fine movie.
go maximus go
I concur with David and Michael—Gladiator is an exceptional movie from what I can recall.
To the point: I understand what everyone is saying and I would agree with the premise that it could be interpreted as a nightmare for both characters. The setting, which has been argued as either an earthly hell or a not too terribly drastic place, can also be seen in my mind as an earthly hell. Some evidence to support this is that in the nightmare, realizations (the understanding of more than just the physical aspect) seems far beyond this world; the concept of Kurtz's mad soul. Another clear image that sustains this is by examining the sorcerer, who is not only described as possessing horns (like a devil) and exhibiting a fiendish appearance, but is also referred to as just an ‘it’. I have no firm idea as to why Marlow continuously sees the sorcerer/witch man as an ‘it’ but I’d venture a guess that this poses a further meaning. Weaker evidence, if any at all, to conclude my thoughts is the picture of the physical fire not far off in the distance.
The first passage is a nightmare as much as hell is. Alexander made a good point when he said that the inner station was not just Kurtz’s hell but Marlow’s as well. Marlow threatens to kill Kurtz, and I think that if he does, he too will be lost. Marlow does not want to kill Kurtz, but the hellish circumstances force him to face it as a possibility. Kurtz appears to Marlow to be drawn to the “pitiless breast by the awakening of forgotten and brutal instincts”(paragraph 29). This sounds like being pulled down to hell. This passage is a nightmare, and I can think of no nightmare worse than being pulled down by the devil. Marlow sees Kurtz as “kicking himself loose of the earth” and he does not know whether he stands “on ground or [floats] in the air”(paragraph 29). Marlow is worried about being drawn down too, as he recognizes his internal struggle. He decides against killing Kurtz and there he recognizes why Kurtz is now the devil’s own and he is spared: Kurtz is struggling with himself as well, but his soul has “no restraint, no faith, and no fear”(paragraph 29) all which Marlow displays that separate him and keep him in his own body and mind.
The second passage Marlow shows his loyalty to Kurtz by living through the nightmare, because Marlow sees Kurtz’s realization in “the horror, the horror” and wishes to take what Kurtz has learned beyond Kurtz’s death. David makes a point in saying that Marlow has no choice but to stay loyal to Kurtz. It’s like a dream where you cannot control your actions and behavior, but you are not sure you would change what you are doing if you could. Marlow has no second thoughts about his loyalty to Kurtz because there is nothing he can do but wait for the nightmare to be over and he can’t even decide whether where the dream is taking him is right or wrong. This part of the book especially seemed to separate Marlow into three people. One is carrying out all the actions, one is taking it in (with no choice as to what happens) and the third is adding his commentary while telling a story. Marlow sees Kurtz’s final words as a way to get out of the dream. By recognizing that Kurtz has finally realized what has been going on, and repenting for the mistakes he has made, Marlow can finally wake up to use his dream to make a difference. The ‘coda’ of the book reminds me of the animations of global travel in movies, where you see a line moving across the world. There is no emotion, only the concrete. The dream is over and Marlow can finally reflect on what has happened. Because of Kurtz’s final words, he can wake up. It’s like a dream where you feel until something is accomplished you can’t leave.
I have to agree with what Brianna pointed out. What made this episode so nightmarish for Marlow is that he is shocked and devastated to know who the real Kurtz is. The supernatural being that Marlow had heard of turned out to be a character unfortunately flawed. He sees that Kurtz has sold himself to the devil, sold himself to the deceit and lies that were brewing in the Congo. Kurtz has gone to the point of no return, why else does he hesitate to leave the Congo and return to Belgium. The Congo has become his life and story. Marlow realizes that he too does not want to stray down the same harmful and self-destructive path that Kurtz went down. Marlow decides to spare Kurtz life in fear of being dragged down to hell as well by the devil.
I kept noting down the times where Marlow would defend or speak highly of Kurtz, for these instances puzzled me. But I guess Marlow learned that Kurtz came to the Congo not as the devilish person he turned out to be, but as a man who was unknowing of what he was getting himself into, resembling the person Marlow was when he first came to the Congo. Marlow learns how not to blame Kurtz for selling his soul to the devil and can relate to him. Marlow is impressed by Kurtz's last words, because for those brief moments of complete vulnerability and weakness of Kurtz's, he was able to break away from his restraints and realize what he has done and what he has become because of his experiences in the Congo. Like Aditya said, Kurtz took a small glimpse at the truth.
My answer for the first passage is that I agree that the dream is a nightmare, for both Marlow and Kurtz, though I would not say it is a sort of hell on earth representation. It was a nightmare for Marlow when he discovered that Kurtz had left, because he felt the distinct, overpowering need to find Kurtz and bring him back and when he finds Kurtz gone after all Marlow went through to just to get to Kurtz, Marlow is in a nightmarish predicament.. Kurtz was stuck, in the Congo, his power and God like status made it undesirable and illogical to go back to Europe, his will had submitted to the darkness. Instead of civilizing the savages, he had brutally enslaved them to his bidding. When Marlow went and found Kurtz and was able to talk him into going back, Marlow unsuccessfully attempted to bring him out of the nightmare, the Congo itself.
My answer for the second passage is that I believe that Marlow says he has “remained loyal to Kurtz to the last, and even beyond...” because even after Kurtz’s death, Marlow still thinks of him as a remarkable man. I also believe that Marlow is very surprised and almost empathetic by Kurtz’s final cry and calls it “and affirmation, a moral victory paid for by innumerable defeats...” because Kurtz finally saw, even if only for a brief moment, the truth of it all. He finally saw what he had done and what had been done and he realized “The horror!” of it all. He saw his life's work, the past and possibly the future and was disgusted.
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