Tuesday, September 30, 2008
Idea Forum
Use this space to post ideas, questions thesis proposals, and whatever else your creative brains have to offer. Read what others have to say--borrow ideas that help--express your insights & inspirations. Visit more than once with follow-up thoughts. Your essays will benefit from this free exchange of ideas.
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86 comments:
I've always been a bit confused as to what Pip's "great expectation" were meant to be. It hardly seems that becoming a gentleman is a great expectation, but I can see how in that setting it could be something major. I thought that there might be some implicit meaning of what the "great expectation" really is?
While reading Great Expectations, I was really interested in the amount of weight Dicken's put on a personal history and background. In a sense, it seems he's saying that who you are is defined by where you came from. Most of the important characters are given a descriptive background. I wonder if those who weren't were left history-less on purpose.
I don't know - it's kind of a fragmented thought at the moment that found me as I was reading A person's history and background seemed to be an important part.
I have wondered about Pip's great expectations as well. What was expected of him, what was he supposed to accomplish? It seems that from the begining much was expected of Pip yet he too didnt know as to what was desired of him. The fact that he had great expectations in life from others and he placed great ambitions upon himself made his life, i would say, hard. In my opinion too much was asked of him, he couldnt achieve it, therefore he never go around to accomplishing it, and thus he was miserable through out his time as a gentleman. Some people just arent cut out for gentleman-ship but it is placed upon them and they dont do great things with their status. Pip wasnt cut out for the title even though he wanted it. Therefore he was unhappy. If he set his profession on an attainable job, like a blacksmith, and on an attainable wife, like Biddy, I would argue he would have been happier. Pip didnt do this and was miserable because of it.
To Anna --
I agree with you in the sense that Dickens does put a lot of emphasis on personal history and the background of a character, but I don't think that his intention was that where you came from defines you. his entire book is about how Pip, adopted son of a blacksmith, ends up within London's upper-class as a gentleman by a benefactor that also defies where he came from (prison, lower-class, etc.) Estella was also not defined by where she came from, but was brought up by Ms. Havisham as a lady.
I'm not sure if this is what you meant when you were taking about a character being defined by his/her background, but I hope that this helps your thought process.
-Miranda
Thanks for your thoughts Miranda -
I had thought of those things too, because obviously the book is about Pip rising to his "expectations" even though he comes from a background that defined a different future for him.
I was thinking more along the lines of .. you can't necessarily escape where you come from. It defines who you are in the future, but not always in the most obvious way.
I was just intrigued, mostly, that Dickens included such interesting backgrounds on some characters - Havisham, Magwitch, Estella - so the reader could see how those histories corresponded to the character.
How about you guys? Did anyone else notice the strong emphasis on background and knowing where you come from?
Hayden:
While I do agree that Pip most likely would've been happier had his expectations been slightly simpler and more achievable, I disagree with your point that those expectations were somehow placed upon him by others. It never seemed to me that much was really expected of him, especially considering his less-than-advantageous circumstances (his lack of resources, such as money and education) and the perception of children by adults around him (that children were ungrateful brats deserving of punishment), and I think Pip developed those great expectations of his as a kind of compensation for that. He sought to prove to those who doubted him that he was indeed capable of great things, that he could in fact be more than just a blacksmith's apprentice, and a gentleman embodied for Pip those ideals of success and resilience that he held dear. I think that's why his task was as hard as it was and I think that's why he was as unhappy as he was, because he hadn't anyone to blame for failure but himself, because it was to his own expectations that he had to measure up.
In a way, I guess that sort of relates to Anna's question about character history, which was a feature of the book that I noticed as well, because Pip could never truly rise above as he meant to. He was not afforded opportunity in childhood, and, as result, did not know what to do when presented with it as an adult. He couldn't truly escape or change as he hoped he would, and was, like others in the book, trapped by his origins, by his true nature.
My lack of understanding of character foils in class has intrigued me into looking at characters that really off set each other. While I was reading, I noticed that Dickens found the most effective way to show the flaws in characters was to show how another character is better off for doing the right thing. I believe that exploring this will show us more of Dicken's thoughts about right and wrong, and how we should view our "great expectations".
I agree with Sam about contrasting characters used in the story to offset each other and show a sort of wrong from right. I think the characters in the story all sort of represent a certain idea in society; like Wemick the melodramatic clergy man who shows the ridiculous pomp and circumstance or play acting of the church. I also think the story is largely satirical; ridiculing ideals, shown through pip, of society about "gentlemen" and "upper class".
Anna, I agree with your observation that Dickens places a lot of emphasis on a character’s past and personal history. I also agree with Miranda in her point that Dickens wasn’t trying to advocate the view that where you come from defines who you are. It’s true that in that society, the social class that one is born into largely determines one’s station, friends, and livelihood in life. However, I feel that Dickens places an especially heavy emphasis on the standing and social class of each character, as a way to juxtapose their personalities with their original social status. He makes the critique that a higher social status does not necessarily make someone a better person. An example that we talked about in class was Bentley Drummle. Though Drummle is the epitome of a high class “gentlemen,” his personality is more like that of a criminal’s; he’s a sulky and vicious person. In contrast, although Joe’s standing is that of a mere blacksmith in a tiny town situated in the marshes, his character is one of the most noblest and kindhearted personalities that is present in the novel. Joe cares for Pip like his own child, teaches Pip that “…you can never get to be uncommon…through going crooked,” and pays off his debt even when Pip has shunned him for years (55). Dickens makes the point that social status does not make the man. His critique of the value society places on social standing is fascinating because it’s so unique for his time period. This book attacks society’s preconceived notions that character is based on social standing at a time when I’m sure not many was even aware of this bias.
I thought the expectations were of Pip's more than of others'. Pip's first anticipation was becoming more than he is. Second, being a gentleman and living it up. Third, realizing that he has to think about other things and facing reality and its consequences.
But I suppose you could say Joe expects Pip to be a good lad. Or Magwitch expects Pip to be a "gentleman." Mrs. Joe wants Pip to be less bothersome. Miss Havisham expects Pip to have his heart broken. However these examples aren't very "great" - yet still hard to achieve.
Do we make up our own topics or use the left-handed/right-handed sheet he gave us?
Perhaps I could do a paper about expectation (or not).
I don't really like figures of speech analysis, or character. I quite like themes (but the book contains Just. So. Much. Stuff.)
Krista: When you mentioned that the novel makes a point of ridiculing ideals, I immediately thought of Pip. I feel like Pip is a character that is highly influenced by social standards and ideals, especially by the idea of an “ideal” gentleman. He shuns and looks down on his family and friends because he feels this is the way that a gentleman should act. There’s no concrete reason that Pip should feel ashamed of Joe and Biddy. He feels this way because he believes that this is the proper behavior for a gentleman. This same reasoning applies to his spending exorbitant amounts of money on furniture, clothes, and food. He doesn’t really know what a gentleman should act like, so he just tries to follow the stereotype and live lavishly. Pip is, in general, a very susceptible person, and I feel almost everyone can relate to him in that aspect. It’s what makes him, ironically, a very honest and real character.
Dickens uses irony and satire with many of the characters and situations. One of my favorite scenes in the book was when Sarah Pocket and Miss Camilla were in the room as young Pip was walking Miss Havisham. They stared at her and pretended they cared about her well being, while Miss Havisham circled around the dinning table without looking at them. The first thing that came to my mind was a scene with a couple of vultures waiting on their pray to die. Their eyes full of greed follow the old, decaying woman living out the last couple of moments of her life. Scenes like this are meant to show the dirty side of high society, behind all the "manners".
As for the title's meaning, I think you can conclude that the title pertained to not only Pip, but other characters as well. Other characters in the story had high hopes for Pip too. Joe and Biddy wished him to be a gentlemen, because they wanted Pip to have the thing he yearned for the most. Magwitch wanted Pip to be a proper gentlemen, because he wanted him to have the one thing he didn't and had to go to jail for. I had the impression Magwitch was living through Pip in some ways. Some other characters like Pumplechook expected some great out of Pip so that they could somehow benefit from him. The expectations that Pip had to bear were not only his.
I thought the social satire of a gentleman was really interesting. I talked with JD and my group about how Pip was trying to be a gentleman, but the harder he tried, the further away he got from becoming one. We saw this through his lack of respect for Joe when he comes too visit him, how he was uncomfortable and embarassed by him, and also when Magwitch comes to see Pip before he tells him that he is Pip's benefactor Pip treats him as someone lower than him.
Another example as the idea of gentlemen being a satire in the novel is with Drummle. As Michelle said, Drummle was born into a high class family and was a gentleman by birth but his actions made him seem otherwise. He was sulky and anti-social and acted like a criminal (even Jaggers called him a Spider).
First of all, I absolutely agree with meiying that Magwitch lived through Pip in almost everyway, he recognized the potential in Pip to be a good person and wanted someone to live the life he could never have.
Oh and I also wanted to add that I think that Dickens’ interesting backgrounde to his characters are just another part of his genius. I think Dickens created worlds and people not characters and stories. He wanted his characters to be as real on paper as London was to him, and in real life people have complex backgrounds. Maybe he understood how important background is to the identity of an individual. Pip, for example, is not the same person without his background and history.
I also wanted to add to the discussion, and also to the collection of possible essay topics a quote in the back of my book. The afterword is written by Eileen Charbonneau and she says:
“ Dickens was very interested in the nature of goodness. It’s clear he held the unfashionable belief that good people were interesting. Great expectations abounds in his saints: Joe Gargery, Biddy, Mr. Jaggers, Herbert Pocket and his father, and Wemmick. In his own category stands Pip’s convict benefactor, who is not only redeemed, but made human through a child’s act of kindness”
For me, this quote raises a ton of questions, but most importantly I wanted to hear your thoughts on what you think dickens perception of the nature of goodness is?
That is very true. Not only did Pip have these great expectations but so did many of these characters.
I feel like the underlying theme of the book is to show the stagnation one goes through in an attempt to raise their social status. Pip's case obviously at the end does not end well. We see that Pip has done nothing in his tenure as a gentleman. Once he loses his wealth he becomes once again a productive citizen and is happier with his life. Some people pointed out that Dicken's point was not to show that people can't move up from what family they were born into by citing Estella's case. However first of all Estella was brought up in a society of wealth. So in fact though she was born to poverty, she is in fact part of wealth. Nevertheless, Estella's case was not much different from Pip's. She ended up as a beaten widow, now devoid of her dashing looks. However it is also felt that she is also happier, and has gotten much wiser in the ten years gap.
I feel that this unability for peoples to get up the social ladder is very resonant in the book. This may be a theme shown in his real life. Born into modest livings, he became famous, but may have also felt out of place too.
I agree with Camden about the way Dickens sets up his novels, each character feels so real and has so much depth because of the extraordinary way Dickens set up their history.
I also thought that Great Expectations has an overall theme debating the pursuit of happiness. It seems that Dickens was showing the typical strive for money and status to make a point. Pip spends the whole novel trying to live up to a certain expectation that he sets for himself, only to find that he is most happy when he is around the people he cares about the most.
The posts prior really remind me of the definition of the Shakespearean tragic hero. Comparing Pip to the definition, he does resemble the stereotype somewhat in the fall of someone of a higher standing. Pip does differ though in that he wasn't born a prince, nobleman, etc. Instead he tries so hard to build his way up to what he thinks a gentleman should be, that he feels the unraveling of his expectations just as much as someone falling from a high standing. Perhaps the same could be said for Magwitch, because he seems to "live through Pip" as Camden said. Magwitch definitely seems to have hit a peak, accomplishing the task of showing what was good about Pip, right before being arrested and dying in prison.
Intervening in the conversation amongst Krista, Michelle and Hannah… you guys bring up great points about the social satire in the book. At first, I really had no appreciation for Pip’s character. I thought he was a selfish, jealous, spineless, poser (Harsh right? Incredibly naïve as well!). However, all of this character analysis has forced me to look at Pip not from the surface level, but from the perspective of Dickens, and the themes he conveys through Pip’s character.
In that respect, I started to think about what Dickens tried to suggest with Mr. Jaggers. Jaggers starts off as the stereotypical lawyer. He gives off the aura of a mysterious, intimidating man who is ‘strictly business’ and drenched in guilt because of the people he has to defend (goes to show how I stereotype lawyers :)). Even his office and clients emanate his character. The nature of criminal defense lawyers is greatly satirized by Dickens through Jaggers’ character. However, Jaggers’ behavior later on in the book directly contrasts these first couple of impressions he gives us. I am referring to when Jaggers becomes uncharacteristically sympathetic towards Estella when Pip finds out who her parents are. He does not want Pip to reveal this information to Estella and further complicate her life. Now my questions are: why did Dickens decide to complicate Jaggers’ character through his paradoxical behaviors? How did this contribute to the broader themes in the book (i.e. social satire, great expectations, etc.)?
I agree with Lisa in that Pip has many expectations. Various characters have various expectations of Pip. Pip takes all the expecations of those around him, and develops one over-arching expectation for himself; a "great expectation." As the book (and Pip's life) progress, the people, and hence, what's expected of him, change. Thus, his own great expectation also change. In this way Pip experiences multiple, self-imposed "great expectations" throughout the course of the book.
Note that I use the term self-imposed loosly, as (at least the way I'm looking at it) the expectations he has of himself are simply the assimilated expectations of those he has come in contact with.
Yea, okay, so Matt there just took my thoughts that I agree with Lisa as well. However, I also think that Estella had great expectations of her own, especially for Miss Havisham. An example showing this is in pg 261 in the nice Barnes and Noble purple book, "'It is a part of Miss Havisham's plans for me, Pip,' said Estella, with a sigh, as if she were tired...'" So I agree with everyone in that Pip's expectations differ from person to person, but it's not just Pip that has expectations.
Also Michelle brought up the point of society not being as it's cut out to be. How everything is really flip-flopped. Dickens was able to satirize the justice system, "...with mighty Justices (one with a powdered head) leaning back in chairs, with folded arms, or taking snuff, or going to sleep, or writing, or reading the newpapers - and with some shining black portraits on the walls, which my unartistic eye regarded as a composition of hardbake and sticking-plaister" (101). Or how at the Pocket's home, it was the servants that were the ones running the house while the family are kind of off in their own world.
I was also thinking about themes that came up; money, being grateful, revenge, etc. With money, we can see how much it influences people to be something that they are not. Seeing Pumblechook suck up to Pip after he knew about the property, or how Pip himself regarded himself as someone of high caliber with the money. Being grateful, obviously with Joe and Biddy. But then there is also Miss Havisham, after seeing Pip trying to sacrifice his love for Estella's decision with Drummle, she begins to regret not being able to live life or allow Estella to live life the way that she wanted; she takes life for granted.
The last thing that I want to say was the connection of this book and Brave New World. BNW had to do a lot with mind-control, and trying to make life perfect for everyone there. Miss Havisham had brainwashed Estella into being something that she isn't, trying to make her life as perfect as possible, only to be actually destroying the human element inside of her (emotions). So yeaa, that's it.
Hmm, all your comments have made me wonder what was the point of this book. We ask "So what?" to our essays, so why not apply it to the great Dickens himself? I see possibilities in these comments, it's a social satire. Yes....but I'd like to think that Dickens meant for it to be more than a cynical masterpiece he wanted to throw at the common man. Why is it that this novel is so highly acclaimed? It is essentially about a "selfish, jealous, spineless, poser" (thanks Roopa, copying and pasting is so much easier than thinking of my own adjectives), surely a relatable character, but not one I'm necessarily proud to relate to or one that I would like to spend hours relating to, which I did by reading it. Maybe all this week of discussion has just gone over my head as to what the real answer to "So what?" was. But then I realise, it must be applied to the times in which is was written, and that led me to my revelation, maybe book was supposed to spark a revolution of sorts, where the gentlemen realized they were jerks and tried to change, and the common folk realized they were good people (or pompous asses) as they were, and settled down to be content being good people. And perhaps that's why this novel has survived the test of time, it's still relatable today; the lower class are trying to be middle; the middle upper; and the upper...umm...more upper, but Dickens novel shows that it's really not about what class you are, you can be Bill Gates rich and be a complete a-hole, so what does the money matter? Sometimes lower class people have the kindest hearts of us all, sometimes vice a versa. But then again, even that theme can be portrayed on a cheesy Hallmark card....ug...so I'm still at a loss. All my ramblings has led me back to the beginning of the circle, but maybe later I'll think I'll have a genius idea, and come back and ramble on. Till then, ideas?
I agree with Katherine’s idea that to understand Dickens and the novel he wrote, one has to “apply it to he times in which it was written.”
I also somewhat agree with the idea that part of the reason that the book was relatively popular as it was [and has grown into greater popularity over the years] is that it was a book about class advancement in a time where climbing above the class one was born into was absolutely preposterous. It was a book where money and status, in the end, did not determine the inner worth of its characters--where the lower-class people had “the kindest hearts of us all,” and vice-versa, in a time where the high class was simply a dream for the lower-classes. It was a book that perhaps only Charles Dickens could have written.
That bit of social commentary is one of the messages of the book, of course. You got this far before falling into thoughts that “that theme can be portrayed on a cheesy Hallmark card”--that such a theme is simple and pretty useless. As you say, that’s quite a circular train of thought. It’s also very true--kind of a simple theme indeed for such a “classic.”
I think that the key to understanding the timelessness of this book and escaping from your endless circle, then, lies in its contrast with the rest of Dickens’ bibliography, as one of his 16 (I think) ultra-long novels.
When it was written, it was apparently one of his least popular publications among the original audience. This was partly due to his overall satire of Victorian social stratification, I think (as opposed to simple, shocking statements of extreme poverty in Oliver Twist, et al.)--but also very much due to the fact that Great Expectations is very un-“Dickensian,” probably the least so of all his novels. Much of the plot is quite sober and realistic, despite the inherent humor in the way Dickens writes it. It’s got few outrageous characters in spectacularly theatrical situations, which is part of what made him so popular. In fact, as many people have said above, many of the characters--especially Pip--are very human, very flawed, very real. You won’t find such caricatures as a Martin Chuzzlewits or an Ebenezer Scrooge here. It’s a book probably written by a wizened and more world-weary Dickens. It’s… though I really despise throwing around this word… a pretty deep book, on many levels.
But that’s exactly where the illumination and timelessness of that message comes from. It’s very much a Dickens novel, very representative of his talent and literary style, simply without the outrageous elements that initially made him so popular. The somberness of it all really makes the mature, self-reflexive messages powerful. Generation after generation of readers can directly appreciate the message, unlike the very Victorian-centric messages in books like Bleak House, Little Dorrit, or The Old Curiosity Shop. (Some of which I admittedly haven’t read, but have read… about.) Timeless. Dickens looking at human nature, even?
To directly address Katherine’s dilemma, I think that the message is indeed simple enough to properly compose a Hallmark card. But the way that Dickens introduces it in Great Expectations is just so powerful--so relevant regardless of time period, that a Hallmark card really just can’t compare.
So this was pretty much “whatever else your creative brains have to offer,” yeah. Just something that I’ve been thinking about. Rambling… pretty much.
As for essay ideas… I’ve kind of been throwing around a few things, like the extent to which Great Expectations is “autobiographical.” His takes on parenthood, pseudo-high-class life, Pip’s complex relationship with impoverishment, and other things are kind of reminiscent of Dickens’ own strange little story--full of things that he didn’t want to admit. Kind of fascinating, this guy. Just how much of Great Expectations comes from his own experiences of life and people?
The idea of duality and “parallel themes” is really intriguing, too--playing off of each other, affecting the reader’s perception of the other. Just about everything in the book has a parallel, too, so there’s tons of content to discuss.
An analysis of Pip as a narrator might be interesting, too--Dickens really does some interesting things with the matured narrator-Pip, just as Dickens was getting on in years himself as he wrote Great Expectations.
Michelle: i agree with pip being confused about what is a gentleman and trying to fulfill a stereotypical profile for a gentleman. i think that he wants to be like drummel because of his desire for Estella; but i think he is frustrated even in his wealth by a feeling a inferiority because of his birth. i don't think pip ever really feels accepted as a gentleman and that causes him to pull further away from his roots, joe and biddy, and in a way sort of deny his heritage and his class by birth.
David, I think you might be on to something with the false high class in the novel and the duality of characters. Is it too far to say that the reader is meant to generally approve of the less fortunate in the novel than those with wealth and prosperity? Dickens places Pip in the middle of this scale, with attributes of both to help understand the struggle.
One thing I find found rather interesting was the theme of trying to change one's status or destiny and having it turn out miserably. For example, Miss Havisham falls madly in love with Compeyson and he leaves her at the alter and takes her money. So distraught is she that she brings up Estella to get her revenge on men. Remarkably, Miss Havisham seems to expect love from Estella, which, of course, is not there. Her conditioning destroyed Estella's heart. In fact, she's greatly aggrieved by the fact that Estella doesn't care for her or show her any pity or love. Miss Havisham doesn't gain any joy or satisfaction through her revenge.
Pip also wants to change his status, but does nothing to alter it. Magwitch also tries to change his destiny and he does it vicariously through Pip by becoming Pip's benefactor. He hopes that Pip will live a great life and become all the things he wishes he could be. Pip, however, only wants to be a gentlemen so that he can marry Estella. Upon becoming a gentlemen, however, Pip turns into a idle loser. He just gambles and drinks and spends money. He resents Joe and Biddy and tries to distance himself from them. In doing so, he loses all the good qualities he used to possess: sympathy, honesty, and respectability, to name a few. He doesn't even get to marry Estella. Only Magwitch really gets any real joy from Pip's being a gentlemen.
I wonder if Dickens was trying to make a point here. Maybe changing your status isn’t really all that it’s cracked up to be. Maybe you would be happier in your current way of life and that, in trying to alter your status, you may end up destroying all that was good in you. If Pip had stayed Joe’s apprentice and married Biddy, in my opinion, he would have felt more satisfaction and happiness as a result. His being a gentlemen basically caused him more grief and hardship than anything else. Another point could be that money and material things bring you no pleasure. Pip certainly doesn’t seem to enjoy being a gentleman; he only desired to be one so that he could get Estella. Pip’s rapport with Biddy and Joe seemed much more meaningful than any of Pip’s new “friends”, except in the cases of Wemmick and Herbert. These are just some of my thoughts that I’ve had and hopefully they make some sense and I can create a paper out of them.
It seems as if the big question is what Pip's Great Expectations really were and how he was supposed to achieve them. I agree with many of the people that Pip's life may have been much more happy and simple if he had became a blacksmith and married Biddy, but the issue is that he eventually met Estella at Satis House. I believe that Pip's own thoughts of his Great Expectations was to ultimately gain Estella's love by whatever means necessary. Just as he told Biddy that he wanted Estella and how he became enraged when he learned that Estella planned to marry Drummle, he made all of his different goals and wishes based upon the ultimate goal of earning Estella.
I also agree with Adtiya's response that the overall theme of the book is to show the "stagnation one goes through in an attempt to raise their social status." It does seem like Pip was not the only person to have great expectations in the book. Magwitch gave himself the expectation that he would make Pip a gentleman, Herbert Pocket wanted to create a successful business, etc. However, all these characters underwent negative events such as Magwitch's status as a convict, and Herbert's extended duration of a lack of money.
I was really hoping that this discussion would still be alive, seeing as how we're presumably all writing our essays.
Would've been a valuable resource.
Oh well--I guess I might throw up a main-page post of my own if I really feel like it.
I agree. How's everyone going on their essays?
If that fact that no one is posting means everyone's essay is going perfectly and that no one needs help or input, then. . . well, I'm not doing as well as the rest of you.
I guess I join David and Anna's disappointment in the blog. I've written most of the essay, but would kind of like to verify my ideas. It stinks that I probably can't depend on this convenient medium of communication to get that support :(. Please prove me wrong! Let me know if you want to have an in depth discussion about Jaggers, because I'm your gal!
I can't believe I just said, "I'm your gal!" Please forgive my momentary lapse in sane judgment.
To Roopa: What's the matter with "I'm your gal"? It's very Wild West. Personally, I like it--maybe it's a clever though irrelevant allusion to the old song "Buffalo Gal, won't you come out tonight."
By the way, I too am disappointed to see the comments fall off, but everyone who is lamenting the death of the blog is also posting comments. So it's not dead, everybody else! (Or as Stephen Colbert might say, "Let's get with it, Nation!")
I think everyone is afraid to admit that they haven't finished their essays yet...
I might post asking for help pretty soon - mine still needs some fattening up.
Well Anna, let me be the first to admit that I am not finished with my essay. Not finished in the sense that I don't think it is AP Lit quality. I wish we had had a preliminary deadline to share our rough drafts with each other, like how it was done in AP Lang... but this isn't AP Lang is it!
Please help.....I have my essay but can't create an account on turnitin.com. I keep getting an error message that says I either have the wrong Class ID or wrong password. I'm typing in 2442397 for the ID with and without the AP Literature in front and Duncan for the password like the paper said.
I guess I'll print a copy just in case I don't get help before tomorrow. (also taking multiple screenshots of my failed attempts)
grace, I had your problem on turnit.com also. I finally got it to work by putting the id as 2442397 and the password as duncan, without capitalizing the d. hope that helps! btw, last time I checked, we didn't have any way to turn it into the site.
I had the same problem first. But all you have to do is enter in the password as: duncan (with a lower case d). How petty, right? But here is the thing. Even if you do create an account, you can't submit the essay because it is not listed as an assignment. I have emailed Mr. Duncan about this, so let us see if he is able to fix this problem for us. But printing out a hard copy is a good idea anyway :)
I'm getting the same problem.
"Either the ID or password you have entered is incorrect. Please try again or contact your instructor."
This is not a good thing..
But I'm taking it as a sign that my essay it not ready to be turned in. I'll try again in an hour after I've given it another edit.
HA HA HA! (I refused the temptation to write lol!) Brianna, Anna and I responded to Grace's comment, saying the same thing, at the same time!!!
Thanks guys!!! That really scared me for about 40 minutes now.
We're pretty cool like that, apparently.
I can't decide if I'm ready to turn in my paper yet or not. Like Roopa was saying, I don't feel it's AP Lit quality yet.
Just wondering, are you guys satisfied with the amount of time we had to write the essay? Hannah and I were having a conversation about this earlier today, and it was interesting to say the least.
It wasn't so much a time thing. No matter the amount of time I'm given, I usually end up procrastinating anyway.
I'm just nervous that the only eyes that have seen my essay are my own. I'm used to having various checkpoints and peer revisions and other such things.
I don't expect to be babied along during my essay-writing process in AP Lit, but dang, I'm still nervous.
Does anyone know if we need a bibliography or works cited page?
I forgot to ask in class.
I'm not, I feel like we've been doing so much, that there had to have been more time, and BAM it's already due. I've been working for too many hours a day on this essay, but i'm so unmotivated i can't find anything worthy to write about. Oh, well, I guess this is AP lit....
What I'm MORE worried about is reading Heart of Darkness. I wouldn't mind a longer time to read that thing..
As for work cited, I've no idea. I didn't think about it, since the only work I used to write my essay was Great Expectations.
I agree with Anna that I wish we had had a chance to read others and be read. Maybe we next time we should host a discussion party (or a few) after school when an essay is assigned
Did anyone amble over to Hardin's and Minor's blogs?
They were a lot more enthusiastic about this whole idea forum over there.
No, I havent, how do you get there?
You change the teachers name in the URL. I checked it out because my friend was bragging about how awesome his class was.
Anyhow, I'm done going off topic(sorry, Mr. Duncan, if you're reading this).
Anyone want to swap essays before submitting it?
How do you turn in your assingment? the turn it in thing won't let me
Cool. I totally agree with you guys. And Katherine, that is an awesome suggestion. I too shrugged the situation off by saying, "Oh well, it's AP Lit!" But creating a sort of 'group schedule' so we can do peer reviews, etc. ahead of time is so much more constructive than having to deal with the situation alone. This way we are not bugging Mr. Duncan to baby us and stealing his class time, but are taking matters into our own hands.
And I think that Mr. Hardin's blogs are a lot more effective (please don't take offense)than ours. They actually make use of the blog and people contribute as if it is worth their time, and not as a chore.
Mohanika - so far none of us have been able to turn in the assignment (ruins the purpose of turnitin.com!!!). So just print your essay out for class,
OK , and one more thing i thought that great expectations was slightly farcical in some parts due to the stock characters that exist like mrs pocket, is that justifiable?
Yea, they are awesome, but i think i'm currently unmotivationable. All the thesis' they talked about seem to be lacking the "so what?" I don't know if i'm expecting too much from these essays....i just seem to have a hard time finding a subject that is so totally awesome that it blows my own mind. I'm wondering if it's because we discussed so much of the ideas in class, and i'm wanting to think of something completely and utterly original that i'm just feeling out of ideas.
So, um, my printer is out of ink and turnitin is not working.
What now?
Anna, I'd be more than happy to review your essay. Let me work on mine a little longer (an understatement) and I'll send mine to you. Is it okay if it a little late when I get back to you on your essay? I tend to be a night owl. my email address is: roopasriram@comcast.net (SURPRISE! It is not very creative, but I prefer it that way :) )
Mohanika - I think that attributing those characters to farce is a stretch. I understood farce to be a lot more clumsy and silly (for lack of better words). Characters like Ms. Pocket are a little more sophisticated. However Mr. Wopsle and his Hamlet... that is a lot sillier.
Katherine - I can relate to how frustrated you must feel. Have you chosen a topic yet?
save it, email it to yourself, and print it out tomorrow before school in the library.
Anna, I can print the essay for you.
i've chosen many a topic, and ended up dismissing them all.
My main problem is that I convince myself of my argument in my thesis and write. After about ten minutes, I start to argue my own thesis!!! Then I have to convince myself again. It is a vicious circle! Atleast I know that my thesis is arguable :)
Dickens uses minor plot additions, and changes in the narrators tone to create an underlying subtle horatian satire against the higher class values that existed in Europe in the mid eighteen hundreds to accompany Pip‘s views of being a gentlemen eventually exposing the change in Pip‘s nature over time, leading up to his (Pip‘s) revelation.
that is my thesis please critique it, i was thinking of either modyifing it or scrapping it and starting over again because i just can't think of anymore examples
Do you have an essay? If not, I am sure that Anna and I will come to your rescue! Yes Anna, I volunteered you, since we seem to be the few who are a active in the blog.
Thank you for volunteering me...
No, just kidding, I'd be happy to help.
I'm a little nervous to send over my essay, Roopa, but I will. Just keep in mind that at the moment, the structure is a bit rough.
The thing I have trouble with most is getting my ideas in an order that makes sense for the essay and topic.
Roopa- who was that last comment directed to? If me, then no, i don't, i've been sitting at this computer for 9 hours just today, and i have nothing. Right now, I'm attempting an essay on personal "great expectations" are necessary to find contentment, but most of the characters have a hamartia (can hamartia be a verb? to hamartia?) with their great expectations that it leads them toward dissatisfaction. Something like that... But i don't know, i may end up deleting it like the rest and having nothing again.
My advice Katherine is to just take an idea and run with it.
I stared at a blank screen for hours today, and finally, when I started writing (without worrying about form or order or anything EXCEPT ideas), I got something out on the page that I was able to work with and mold into an essay.
Don't think too hard unless you'll explode. Or just get really, really frustrated.
Yes i have an essay but.... it not done yet so yah, still got lots of work to do...
At this point, I'm kinda digging the idea of just exploding. Then i would have an excuse for not being able to turn it in tomorrow. :P
I tend to write expository style essays(good for science, bad for lit/lang) and have very weak, ambivalent, and/or unarguable thesis.
I guess I'm extremely nervous, but by now I really don't know how to write a good essay. I don't know if I'm correct in my assumptions about characters or anything anymore.
Mohanika - that is a solid idea. I would work on its wordinesss. Try not to make it too broad either. Stick to specific situations, because I know you have so many to choose from.
ok thanks Roopa I'll keep that in mind, im just so frusterated.
Thank you Grace! It's good to know I'm not the only one person that has trouble writing essays out there!
But anyway, that comment wasn't helpful at all to your dilemma, let me try again. I've found that often when I think my opinions are wrong or I'm not worthy to make opinions about things, that's the only thats wrong with my opinions, if that makes sense. Your ideas most likely are really good, your assumptions correct, etc. The fact that you've read the book and are in this class prove that.
I just sent off my essay Roopa.
My computer sent it off before I could added this on, but I just wanted to add that the most important things I'm wondering:
-How I can possible tighten up the structure. It seems a bit rambly at the moment, and some of the paragraphs seem interchangable.
-General ideas. Is it clear, did I cover what I said I would, and do I provide enough support?
Over course, any contructive crit is loved. Thank you so much for looking it over.
Okay, I'll try to improve on explicitly directing my comments to people. So...
Anna: You're welcome! I too have uncertainties with my organization. I am doing character foil on Jaggers and Pip. I am wondering if I should first focus on Jaggers, then do the second half on Pip, or alternate between their contrasting points. But please feel free to email your essay to me.
Katherine: Okay, so we need to jumpstart you! I would say be specific. Chooses specific characters (or a character) and focus on them, and relate that to greater purpose. I know that is really vague (I am not a Lit scholar). Take Mohanika's for example. She takes tone/plot additions with Pip, and relates them to the satire and development of his character in the book (Mohanika, did I get that right?) Does that help? Or am I acting like an under qualified fool who thinks she knows everything?
Grace: I think as long as your ideas are arguable and are backed by sufficient evidence, they should be okay.
This isn't related to my essay (which is a little scary...) but why did Estella get married when she was sculpted by Miss Havisham to break men's hearts? Maybe I should know the answer to this but I don't...(lol)
Anna, is it okay if it takes me a while to get to your essay? When do you want it by? I work better with deadlines.
I want it NOW.
No, kidding. Whenever you get around to it is fine. I probably won't submit my essay 'til morning anyway, because my brain is a bit muddled from staring at it for hours. I'd like to be able to look at it with a clear head.
So, take your time. I really appreciate you looking at it at all.
Chelsea: I see Estella as someone needed to be constantly satisfied. I think she felt like Drummle's wealth and status satisfied her expectations? And I also think that at that time, a young woman must be wed. I think it solidified a woman's standing in society. I guess I am thinking of Pride and Prejudice when I say this. In this case, it must have made sense for Estella to marry the biggest ass who happended to have the most money and highest status.
Anna, I'll try to get it to you before you wake up tomorrow. So if you check your email at 5:00 it should be there! I hope that is okay. I guess you'll have some time to make any changes (if even necessary!).
I am going to briefly retract myself from this blog to actually work on my essay. Sorry!
Alright thank you. I was thinking the same thing on the social standing part, but I guess I just expected her to grow a heart and marry Pip or always be single.
Really? I always thought she was a shallow player who would jump at the first opportunity to marry super rich even if it entailed leading a miserable life. This may also be because I never really liked Pip, and didn't expect him to end up happy in love (which is why I really like the alternate ending!).
Wow, 50 comments added within what, an hour? Awesome.
For what it's worth, seeing as it's 2 AM and I doubt anybody else will be on, I haven't been able to turn anything in on TurnItIn due to not having any assignment posted to turn in. I'm assuming this is an overlooked error on Mr Duncan's part? Anybody else having the same problem?
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