1. For the next class we will be focusing on Dostoevsky's treatment of women, particularly Sonya & Dunya. Come prepared with specific passages marked that shed light on these women.
2. Go to Part Three, Chapter One, about six pages in (202 in Pevear/Volkonsky) and find the paragraph that begins, "What do you think?" Razumikhin shouted, raising his voice even more. "You think it's because they are lying?" Read from the line, "I like it when people lie!" through about a page and a half, ending with "Pyotr Petrovich . . . is not on a noble path."
Deceit abounds in C & P, and Rodya seems to have more than a little Hamlet in him. What do you make of this dialogue with Razumikhin? How does lying lead to truth in this novel? Cite specific passages/details to support your ideas.
27 comments:
The Garnett version starts with "What do you think?" shouted Razimihin, louder than ever, "you think I am attacking them for talking nonsense? Not a bit!" at the bottom of page 202. Took me forever to find it.
Razimihin is an example of what he proclaims. He talks a whole bunch of nonsense of what makes man, his adoration for Dounia, and how faulty Luzhin is but all of his honest feelings come out.
I believe that he talks about how man needs to make mistakes and be a real individual to be a real person as an excuse for his condition. He's embarrassed he's a little drunk and he plainly points out that he is a human. "I am a man because I err!" He also tries to calm down the two women about what the doctor suggested (Raskolnikov is a nutter).
Using Razimihin's drunken state, the author breaks from the usual tone of the book to provide some nicer substance. He openly and intensely flirts with Dounia. "...you are a fount of goodness, purity, sense...and perfection. Give me your hand...give me yours, too! I want to kiss your hands here at once, on my knees..."
Dounia and Pulcheria Alexandrovna are alarmed by him. He is a little drunk, talks too much, and makes frank comments. He alarms them even more when he openly insults Luzhin. "Do you think him clever? No, he is a fool, a fool. And is he a match for you? Good heavens!"
Razimihin is full of truth and honesty. He's also a good character. It seems like Dostoevsky is trying to convey that good people are honest people. But honesty still comes out anyway, "Through error [lies and deceit] you come to the truth!"
The passage in the novel is not simply the flirtations of a drunken Razumikhin. He says himself that
"I am dunk like a fool, but that is not it; I am not drunk from wine. It's seeing you that has turned my head..." (193)
He is stumbling over himself torn in his affections for Dunia. He is flirting excessively with her, and scolding himself for it all the while. When he speaks of men who are admirable he says
"to go wrong in your own way is better than to go right in someone else's." (194)
This conclusion is one reached by Razumikhin long before his infatuation with Dunia. It is what draws him to Razkolnikov. Raskolnikov has theories of his own. They may be wrong but they are his own, and although he makes mistakes, like murdering, these mistakes are his own, and not the product of following someone else. And through making these such mistakes he does indeed find truth.
"You never reach any truth without making fourteen mistakes and very likely a hundred and fourteen" (194)
This fundimental believe in each person needing to try there own ideas in searching for truth lead Razumikhin not only to admire Raskolnikov but also empower him to peruse Dunia. He must by his own theory try, despite all foolishness he must ignore what others would say or do and follow his own path. If it is a mistake then he will except it as one that was necessary in finding the correct way. But to find truth, he must find it on his own. He tells Dunia this defending not only her brother who is abnormal and scorned for his lack of conformity but also to defend his own reckless actions.
I think that the quest for truth is an abundant theme throughout the book; someone is either searching for the truth or trying to hide it.
It is profound when Razumihin says, “Through error you come to truth! I am a man because I err! You can never reach the truth without making fourteen mistakes and very likely a hundred and fourteen” (202). What I got out of this is that we make mistakes because we do something wrong, it is not the right thing and therefore obviously not the truth. Thus, the only way to find the truth is to understand these faults and we can then discern what the truth is not, and it will eventually lead us to the right answer.
Razumihin also seems to believe that what constitutes a man are his mistakes, the errors that we go through in life are what make us human. Without any mistakes or wrongdoings we would never learn, and if we have no faults we would be some sort of supreme being that is perfect in everyway, and has no human qualities, similar to, but not exactly, “extraordinary” people. What Razumihin says about man and his mistakes, seems to oppose Raskolnikov belief that there are “extraordinary” people, who can transgress morality and therefore do not make what we call “mistakes” and “errors”. Thus through the abundant lies that Raskolnikov makes he will eventually fall into some error mistake that will lead him to the truth, because after all, he is just a man, not even close to being “extraordinary”.
Later Razumihin says, “Truth won’t escape you,” (203). I think this speaks directly to Raskolnikov, because he has been living within lies, the truth does not matter to him, because he does not want to face it. He has been sacrificing his own well-being, his own existence, for the lies that he tells to cover the truth. However, eventually he is not able to hold in the truth, and consequently, for lack of a better term, “spills the beans”.
With a lot of what Razumihin says makes him seem like some extraordinary genius, he knows the right thing to do or believe in many situations. Even while intoxicated, Razumihin still retains much reason and knowledge, and I think that is quite commendable, and it proves that he really is the face of “reason” in the novel. This small passage seems to be one of the biggest discussions of reason that Razumihin makes, and ironically, it is while his judgment should be impaired.
In this passage Razumikhin is very drunk and is walking Raskolnikov's other and sister home. Although Razumikhin is very drunk, this dialogue from him is one of his deepest and most profound. This dialogue gives you an insight as to what Razumikhin is really like and what his beliefs are regarding ideas and being an individual.
"Through error you come to the truth!" Razumikhin commends his friends "nonsense", because he believes that through talking nonsense you will eventually find the truth. He goes on to explain that no one finds the truth without making many mistakes in the process.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it." He believes that we should all make our own mistakes to reach the truth, but he doesn't approve of someone talking "nonsense" to be considered right in someone elses eyes. He believes that we should all be individuals and not conform to the "nonsense" ideas put in front of us.
People are the most honest when drunk. Inhibitions removed, one is free to say who he truly is. This passage serves to show the reasons behind Razumikhin’s actions. In this passage, he shows his reasoning on what makes a good person and a man. Though he does make a fool of himself, it is only because he is drunk, and thus we can see into him. Razumikhin argues that no man is perfect, but he who can admit his faults is good, and a true man. “Through error you come to truth! I am a man because I err! You can never reach the truth without making fourteen mistakes and very likely a hundred and fourteen” (202). As others have said, Razumikhin is what he preaches. He constantly acknowledges his faults “I’m a miserable dolt… drunk, and ashamed” (203), but believes that it makes him a better man than Luzhin, who is described as a “Mountebank” (204), essentially a phony. Razumikhin believes that is better to admit his faults than to pretend as if he has no faults, something he accuses Luzhin of doing.
“If you lie – you get to the truth!” (202). I didn’t interpret this literally as “by lying to others, you can get the truth”, though that obviously can be true (Porifry interrogating Raskolnikov). Rather, I believe that this refers to the truth within oneself.
“Lying in one’s own way is almost better than telling the truth in someone else’s way.” (202)
I believe that Razumikhin argues that by lying to yourself in your own way (as opposed to conforming to the beliefs of the population), you are stepping closer to finding your true personality. For example, Raskolnikov only confesses and realizes that it was wrong to commit the murder after he goes through many stages of his own denial. In the beginning, Raskolnikov believes it is fate that draws him to the murder. Later, he believes that he can transcend the moral bounds of society. It is only after a series of these “self lies” that he finally can come to his confession and moral state at the end of the book.
I really like Fiona's post.
I don't know why, but I'm having a lot of trouble with this passage. Razumikhin is definitley showing his interest for Dunya by openly calling Luzhin "he's a fool, a fool!" (204) and telling her "you are a wellspring of kindness, purity, reason, abd ...perfection!" (203). But, he says that he isn't worthy to love her.
I just don't see how his love for Dunya and how he thinks that he isn't worthy of her relates to how lying is what makes him a man? Or does it? Confused...
Like William said, I do think that the phrase "If you lie--you get to the truth" (202) can be related a lot to how Raskolnikov was lying to himself about the reasons why he commited the murder and those reasons eventually did lead him to tell the truth to Sonya and to confess to the police.
I like Fiona's post too. :)
The first thing I noticed was that my translation reads a bit differently than the one quoted. Mine reads, "Through error you come to the truth!" The passage continues to refer to "nonsense," "mistakes," and "error" all leading to truth, but never once mentions lies.
I'm not exactly thinking too well at the moment, as I'm terribly, terribly tired, so I'm going to generalize a little for now, and come back tomorrow and specify with some quotes and text references and such. So, the way in which lies lead to truth is that, with enough lies, you eventually have to being revealing portions of the truth, letting them shine in through all the lies in order to maintain ethos. Ah, jeeze, I hope that makes sense. You can only maintain so many lies before they all crash down around you, so the truth has to come out one way or another. Yeeeaaah, I'm going to to to sleep. Just ignore this for now and check back once I have some rest.
Lying is an interesting concept in this novel. Our main character goes through many lies with the people around him and himself until he confesses at the very end. Lying leads to the truth in many cases, because a lie can bring up ideas of what the truth can be. When one is able to eliminate the different types of lies, it will lead one closer to the truth. When Razumikhin says, “Through error you come to truth! I am a man because I err! You can never reach the truth without making fourteen mistakes and very likely a hundred and fourteen”; he believes mistakes are just as valuable as successes. Without the existence of lies and mistakes, we can never get to the truths and the successes.
Another point of Razumikhin’s ideas about mistakes deal with originality. How can we get to the truth when we are not making mistakes? We allow other people’s ideas to guide us and lead us toward a different direction. He says, “to go wrong in your own way is better than to go right in someone else’s”. Everyone has their own version of the truth. Whether what reality that truth pertains to is dependent on the person. Not being able to think for one’s self is the worse than making mistakes, because one is too afraid to be wrong and reach the truth at the end.
Wow, in my edition, the quote starts on pg. 194, quite a difference from the one listed. It took me a while to find it.
Anyways, in my opinion, this excerpt reveals just how open and honest Razumikhin is, especially when compared to Rodia. In this particular section, Razumikhin not only reveals some of his philosophy on life, but also reveals his crush on Dunia. In some ways, Razumikhin is almost too honest for his own good. During the entire time that he is escorting Dunia and her mother, he babbles on, basically talking about anything because I think he's nervous to be around Dunia since he's crushing on her.
When he starts discussing his philosophy, he says, "Through error, you come to the truth. I am a man because I error!" (195). I think this quote is very important because it shows that he is not afraid to make mistakes. He understands that mistakes are bound to happen and one should learn from them. I think this is one of the reasons that explain why he tries to help Rodia so much. Not only does he care about him, but he also knows that Rodia's mistakes don't make him a bad person. He's determined to help Rodia realize that.
In addition, in terms of error leading to truth, Raskolnikolv's actions prove this statement to be true. He makes multiple errors (like the fainting scene at the police station and other suspicious behaviors) that eventually lead to Porfiry discovering he is the murderer. Error really did lead to truth in that way.
My edition also doesn’t talk about lying but about nonsense as well. But seeing as the majority thus far have commented and discussed the beginning of this passage I wanted to zone in on a couple of things I noticed in the latter portion of the passage.
I think the key lines in this part (and really in the whole speech because it really sums up what Razumikhin is trying to say) are these, “Do you see ladies? Though all my friends there are drunk, yet they are all honest, and though we do talk a lot of trash, and I do too, ye we shall talk our way to the truth at last, for we are on the right path, while Peter Petrovich... is not on the right path.” (195 in the B&N Garnett version). I honestly think that with all of his “ramblings” what Razu (as I like to call him) is really getting at is that the truth will always be found out, at one point or another, and that those that are at least on the “right path,” those seeking to find the truth and to be truthful themselves, will in the end be rewarded with the very thing they seek, which is truth. Did that make sense? Also if you do look back to the beginning of the passage, the like “Truth won’t escape you, but life can be cramped” (194) I personally thought that Razu was kind of hinting at the idea that while the truth cannot be escaped or destroyed, it can be hidden, though the more lies you obtain, the more “cramped” your life will be. This is Raskolnikov’s issue. He thinks that he is “extraordinary,” above the law, and perhaps because of this perception he maybe believes that he can get away with murder. But as his friend stated, “truth won’t escape” and as the novel wares on it is clear that Raskol (yet another nickname) is feeling the burden of having to hide the truth. His life has become “cramped.”
That’s pretty much what I thought of, questions, comments, concerns? Also in agreeing with like half of the people, nice blog post Fiona, I really liked it.
I too am interested in the quote that Razumikhim said "not a single truth has everbeed discovered without people first lying a hundred times or perhaps a hundred thousand times." But what I find even more interesting is what he says right after that, in the same breath: "and it's, in a way, a highly commendable thing even." Now for a book about justification for bad actions why would the reasonable one Razumikhin seem to stoop to this lower level and justify lying? That is what he is doing here. Always felt Razumikhim was better than that.
What makes Razumikhim's justification different is that he recognized that man wouldn't have truth if there were no lies. He says "through err I come to truth. I am a man because I err." Thus he can show that truth and lies go together, one is absent while one is active. Since he is not afraid to admit that he lies he can also admit to truly being able to tell the truth.
What is interesting is his views on the prevalence of wich one is active the majority if the time. He feels that lies tend to dominate. Because there are more lies they can dance around the one truth untill it finally comes out. If you look at it mathmatically, there are an infinate amount of lies for one truth. Thus there is a lit of dancing going on around this central truth. As you tell more and more lies the chances of the truth coming out go up. Eventually enough lies will be told to where the truth comes out.
I don't really know what to think about this passage. It seems to come out of nowhere and is one of a few serious conversations that Razumikhin has in the book.
I think that lying leads to truth in the novel because the lies the characters tell become apart of themselves. Razinikhim says "It is almost better to tell your own lies than someone else's truth; in the first case
you are a man, in the second you ate no better than a parrot!". To me he is saying that as long as the lies or mistakes are your own, it is more honest and truthful than
any plagerism of another's honesty.
When he says "We have been content to rub along on
other people's ideas-- we have rusted away!" he means that we follow other people's version of what is right and wrong, but why not our own? I think that he is saying that
we lose ourselves in others' ideas and that we should use our own-- lies or not, because our own lies are more honest than using another's.
I have to Constance Garnett translation so my quotes may not match up with everyone’s. I noticed that within the new translation, the passage talks of lying, while my book replaces that word with “to err”.
Within this dialogue, Razumikhin claims that it is man privilege over all creation to be able to go off the beaten path, err, make mistakes, and lie. Only “…through error you come to truth” (194). “To go wrong in your own way is better than to go right in someone else’s” (194). What is significant about this passage is that he not only refutes and ridicules the timid and weak who faithfully follow other’s ideas (Lebetziatnikov is the prime example as he mindlessly and incomprehensibly regurgitates all the fashionable philosophies of the minute), but Razumikhin provides a rationalization or excuse for Raskolnikov’s behavior. For, isn’t Raskolnikov the one taking the leap from animal to man by testing his very own theory of the superman? He’s developing his own ideas, and no matter how absurd they may be, it is infinitely better to err than to “…live on other people’s ideas” (194). He’s making a grave mistake by killing the old pawnbroker, but only through mistakes and errors can he come to the “truth”.
I absolutely agree with Fiona’s post. Razumikihin’s argument that lying/erring is what makes a man a man contradicts Raskolnikov’s theory of the superman. His theory of the most worthy man is at odds with Raskolnikov’s, who advocates not a humble and truth-seeking man but one who is able to transgress laws and in effect make no mistakes. These two types of men are at odds with each other philosophically. According to Razumikhin’s theory, if the best man is one who continually makes mistakes and continually learns from them, Raskolnikov is by no means an “extraordinary” man at the time of the crime but does become one (after he has found peace and knowledge from the murder).
I agree with Brianna: This passage served to showcase the differences in thought between Razumikhin and Raskolnikov. It works beautifully to highlight the two men as foils as their thoughts on what makes a man a man are quite opposite to one another.
Of the many drunken declarations Razumikhin makes in this passage, what stood out to me the most was a section appearing towards the rant's end (on page 219 in my edition):
"Truth won't run away, but life can be easily boarded up. There have been examples of that. I mean, take us. What are we today?...we are all, without exception, still in the preparatory class at school. We've acquired a taste for depending on someone else's brains..."
In my mind, Raskolnikov exemplifies to a tee such an attempt to escape the truth. He is never fully able justify his decision to murder the pawnbroker using his theory of intellectual superiority, and I believe much of the inner torment he experiences is caused by his recognition of that sad fact. He knows that he, just as the other examples Razumikhin cites, is still relying "on someone else's brains" - he is still hoping that someone might convince him of his correctness and assuage his guilt.
Razumikhin distinguishes clearly his view on the words that people say within this dialogue. Even though he is drunk, he recognizes that people are always talking nonsense and if one "keeps talking big nonsense, you will get to sense." I find it interesting that he brings up this subject to Dunia while talking to her about Peter Petrovich. He continues to explain that people are always talking nonsense, but not in a intelligent fashion. In a very subtle fashion, Razumikhin seems to state that Petrovich is one of those people that can speak nonsense in a very intelligent and a seemingly meaningful way. And by talking such nonsense, he can cause people such as Dunia to fall for the empty words that he constructs.
Also, Razumikhin's dialogue touches upon the lies that are abundant throughout the novel. Raskolnikov's ability to avoid the police for a period of time comes from the lies that he creates and twists in order to make them seem like a fact. However, lying to himself into thinking that he could commit the murder without any inner turmoil eventually leads to his confession at the end of the book.
okay, so whether that part was cut out of my particular translation or it is so different that it left out those principles entirely, I am not sure. I can't seem to find the passage anywhere in my book, but I'll do my best.
The quote "You never reach any truth without making fourteen mistakes and very likely a hundred and fourteen" (194) is profound. I personally take it to mean that in order to reach truth, enlightenment, true understanding, etc. we have to make mistakes. That to be human is to make mistakes but it is only through making these mistakes that we learn to better ourselves and have truth in our lives. Truth is most likely different for each of us individually.
I think this passage in particular is an important insight into Razumihin's mind. I think his approach to his shortcomings and faults is both reasonable, humble, and practical all things that reflect his overall character. This passage allows us to see into Razumihin's mind and gain a greater respect for him as he takes care of Dunya, Pulcheria and Rodia.
Going back to the original question of how lying leads to truth within the novel, I immediately thought of Raskolnikov. Rodia's original notion was that killing someone was the truth and the best way, it was essentially an experiment, but he wouldn't have done it if he didn't believe it to be the right thing on some level. His lies and deciet that the uses to cover up the murder, however, lead to ultimate suffering and isolation from the rest of the world, leading him to the fact that murder is wrong, and therefore truth.
I also would disagree with krista that Razumihin admires Rodia in any way, he's repulsed by crime and sees no necessity for it in any way.
Its interesting to see Razumikhin talk while drunk. When he is drunk, we see him as a person who is not restrained and will speak his mind. In his drunk state of mind, we are exposed to Razuminkhin's view on what makes a man a man. I think the fact of him being drunk helps us to find his true view on people.
In the beginning of his rant, he speculates that men make error and that is what makes them men. " I am a man because I err".
Later he claims that it is better to lie about your own self than get into other people's buisness and talk about them."To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone elses's way".
This whole scene helps to exmeplify the whole notion that lying helps to reveal the truth. I feel like Raskolnikov found out more truth abut himself by going through the lying process about the murder he committed.
In this part, I thought it was pretty interesting how it is the drink that makes Razu more belligerent and more open about what his thoughts were. Because it's really similar to how Marmeladov speaks his mind freely without any filter to his words as he almost recites his life story to Ros.
During Razu's outburst to the ladies, he's expressing truth. He's saying that it is inevitable to escape truth, which forshadows Ros's future, "Truth won't escape you, but life can be cramped" (203) life is so limited, because we have to live with other people's expectations. Live by society's rules, so truth is hard to rule at times and slips of lies will fall in sometimes. So trying to live a life of pure truth is hard due to the circumstances of living. Kind of ironic huh? "We prefer to live on other people's ideas, it's what we are used to" (203) because that's what we are used to. We cannot live by our own rules unless we become a sociopath, and apathetic of other people. That's what makes us truthful people. With Pyotr, it seems like he has been a two-face all of the time. So that's the reason why for Razu bashing on Pyotr. Although he and his friends are crude men, they always arrive at the truth, but Pyotr always has a mask to put on. He doesn't show what his true intentions are, always scheming on what to do next. We see Pyotr's thoughts when he goes to dinner with Pulcheria, Dounia, Ros, and Razu. We see that he has mean intentions to take advantage of the ladies, but he doesn't say what he wants. Instead he just implies what he wants through a maze of words.
Lying leads to truth in this novel by going through recognition and guilt. The guilt consumes the person, and they become sick or delirious and kill themselves. Or if their hopes and beliefs are high, they always have something to look up to and believe that there is something better. That there is a way to make things work.
Razumikhin, in this passage, yet again exemplifies reason. Amidst his foolish and drunken proclamations of loyalty and affection towards Dunya and his denouncement of Luzhin, he is able to maintain a certain level of profundity in his thoughts.
Many of us picked the most appropriate quote to capture Razumikhin’s essence, “Through error you come to truth! I am a man because I err!” Mistakes are bound to be made by man; after all, we are far from perfect. However, mistakes are a constant reminder of truth, of what is right. Razumikhin indirectly points out that through Raskolnikov’s lies and mistakes, he will eventually learn to see the truth, the right path that he chose to forego, and hopefully learn from those mistakes. That is the remedy for his suffering.
So, again, it is clearly seen that Razumikhin is the voice of reason in the story. He not only maintains reason in his cluttered, drunken mind, but maintains the perspective of reason in the cluttered lives of other characters in the plot.
Huh, I just realized that one of my favorite tracks off of this Oojami album is entitled "Dunya". Interesting.
I was impressed by Razumikhin's exuberant expression of how the only way to achieve honest truth is through lies. I myself often feel this way. It is apparent by his flirtatious behavior and his openness of philosophical reasoning that he is a very rational, practical, down-to-earth character. Even though drunk, he has a logical thought process: "Lying is man's only privilege over all other organisms. If you lie -- you get to the truth!...Lying in one's own way is almost better than telling the truth in someone else's way; in the first case you're a man, and in the second -- no better than a bird!" (202) In saying this, Razumikhin expresses the philosophy that if one holds to oneself, whether it be a deceitful self or not, it is still one's own deceit. If one takes the truth of another, it is still deceit, but in a manner which is not honorable, because the persons lied to weren't given the, say, respect, they deserve in formulating said deceit. The murders committed by Raskolnikov's own downfall is the deceits of the detective and himself, playing cat-and-mouse which eventually leads to irreversible confessions.
In the groups last time, David, Hayden, and I talked about this passage everyone is referencing. Alcohol seems to be used as a revealer of true character in Crime and Punishment. Sure, Razumikhin is drunk, but his intentions are clear. He continuously flirts and makes his affection for Dunya clear. The strangest thing I find about Crime and Punishment is how many times it seems that Raskalnikov tells the story of the murders "as if he did it", but the surrounding people think he is lying. But this lying is what arouses suspicion in others, and Raskalnikov's ultimate questions.
Razumikhin is what he speaks of. He does not pretend to be something he’s not and when he makes mistakes he acknowledges them and tries again. Luzhin, on the other hand, “is not on the right path” (195). While he attempts to appear as an honest and intelligent man, he is actually nothing more than, “a scoundrel” (195). When Luzhin makes a mistake he refuses to acknowledge that he is the one at fault and tries to put it off onto someone else. Razumikhin accepts his mistakes as his own and speaks nothing but the truth, whether or not a person wants to hear it. Even though he may talk nonsense at times, it is, “through error you come to the truth” (194).
Raskolnikov is lying to himself about why he committed the murder and to everyone else about being innocent. But through the lies, the truth eventually makes its way out. It eats at Raskolnikovs conscience to the point where people start to think that he’s gone nuts. As the lies build up, eventually Porfiry sees through them and attempts to get Raskolnikov to confess.
Although enibriated, Razumikhin recognizes that people are always lying or "talking nonsense" and if someone "keeps talking big nonsense, you will get to sense." Razumikhin is making the statement that although the definition of lying is not telling the truth, through lying the truth is revealed. Which directly correalates to not only Raskolnikov, whose ability to avoid the police for a period of time comes from the lies that he creates but eventually lead to his confession and conviction, but it applies to other characters as well.
Later in the passage, Razumikhin subtly infers that Petrovich is one of these people that can speak nonsense in a very intelligent and a seemingly meaningful way. Thus causing people like Dunia to believe the empty words.
Razumikhin's dialogue in this passage foreshadow lies that are to come as well as further examine the abundant amount of lies up to that point.
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